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Alstone · Moderator & Site Supporter

I'm with you 100% there J.

Al Angry Splat

Rogerflat · Silver Status Member

Oh great, another conspiracy nut. I know, I know, George Bush conspired with the Columbine kids to kill the crocodile hunter by flying sting rays into Waco. Government bad, the common man, good.

Alstone · Moderator & Site Supporter

You better belive it Roger, who do you think breaks into your house each night and buggers up your scope so you can't hit $hit next day. Evil or Very Mad

Al

23ib0d0n · Moderator

Conspiracy? Like the holocaust hoax, perpetuated by the myth of a United New World Order government?

Good thing the media propaganda machine is completely in check while every one of our governments are absolutely looking out more for their citizens Shocked

and not at all for themselves Huh?

Rogerflat · Silver Status Member

I can really only speak for American media, but I question that they are controled or manipulated by the government. Yes, I know that the military won't let them show the coffins of american soldiers that are shipped back home on a regular basis. There is probably some other editing that goes on as well, but then you have people like Michael Moore who completely blast the entire government with motion picture documentaries which embelish the extent of the corruption of the government. This keeps things in check don't you think. It's hardly the level of manipulation that occurs in places like Korea, wherein you get shipped to the salt mines if you even question the statis quo.

The newspapers made out Waco to be the result of a Wacko, but then in the following years there have been a number of shows and articles about how the government mishandled the ordeal. The media giveth and taketh away.

broommaster2000 · Moderator

So it wouldn't be that there's something going on in the UK, but in the US. Right?

While we are talking conspiracies:

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=911_morons

Goes for most of these theories.

If these theories/stories/jabberwock were true, you would be dead.

Oh, and to get better ratings, the Media will put anything on TV. It's not the problem that Media is censored, it's the problem that it's NOT censored.

Also another thing I like to comment on: I was shocked when I heard US commercials. About anything. They were just so immoral that it made me feel bad. They say things in US commercials that you can't say here, and for a good reason.

23ib0d0n · Moderator

thepaladin · Senior Member

This is all so interesting. I see these attitudes so often. at least once here I have seen some logic rear its head above the rhetoric. I live in Nashville. Here it is realatively simple to get a carry permit. I have never, repeat never, seen anyone "flash" a gun. In New York where it is virtually impossible to get a permit to even OWN a gun (forget carry) and if you do get a permit, it takes a month or so of red tape. There the crime rate is, person for person, ten times higher than you find in our area. The attitude that guns "out of the hands" of "regular people" reduces crime, is simply untrue. The argument that "they'll steal your gun" or "they'll use it on you" just doesn't hold water if the facts are looked at. Every case where this happens is trumpeted while cases of succesful home defense (succesful ones are far more numerous) are almost never reported.

I constsntly run into the "gun crazy Americans" comment to. I think that might shock our extremely vocal gun control movement. They like gun controlers everywhere think they know what's better for "me and you" than we might know ourselves. They're all for freedom, as long as they get to decide who gets to be free and what those freedoms should be. They see the Bill of Rights as a bill of suggestions.

"Take the guns away" rhetoric is based on gun fear, not logic. I grew up in the Smoky Mountains on a farm. I learned to safely handle guns starting a four years old (taught by my dad and granddad). Everyone I knew had at least a .22 and a 12 guage behind the door, and usually a deer rifle and a handgun or two. I never knew anyone hurt in a gun accident. I never knew any families where someone shot someone else. The answer is personal responsibility, not new laws or some government telling us "what's best for everyone".

easy · New Member

Alstone · Moderator & Site Supporter

I do not like the underhand way that the UK goverment tries to control air wepons, but I think handguns (firearms) should be banned for the general public, as they are and the reason for my way of thought is thus.

The death rate from shooting in the USA in 2006 was 30,000, the population of the USA is 300 million.

The death rate from shooting in the UK in 2006 was 200, the population of the UK is 60 million, one fifth of the USA, so if the population of the uk was the same as the USA then we would only have 1000 deaths from shootings.

So the lack of hand guns available to the public must make a diffrence. If anyone can interpret these figures diffrently I would be intrested.

See: http://www.gun-control-network.org/GF01.htm

Al

broommaster2000 · Moderator

thepaladin · Senior Member

I'm sorry but I must disagree about a handgun ban. I really believe that it's a straw man to set up a comparison as you did. The stastisics you quote include things like border intervention of drugs, and other situations that aren't applicable to the UK. There is a problem in comparing raw numbers, for example, the numbers from the British home office don't include violence during rape and robbery as they have their own catagory. In the US the offical numbers do include these.

There is I will admit a cultural component to all this. America may in some ways be a more violent culture, though not in all ways. As I pointed out, areas where hand guns are not only freely owned, but carried, actually have a lower crime rate, (in the US). I read an article on line that noted the increased use of knives in violent crime in the UK. Would you advocate the banning of knives? Where does it end? We have a horribly high traffic death rate. Should we ban personal ownership of cars and insist everyone take masstransit? Or what about sky diving, or snow sking, or ATV sports. All have a higher death rate than say hunting, should they be banned? We as individuals must insist on the protection of our personal freedoms, and then also accept the responsibility that goes with it.

This discussion started because, as I understand it, some young people were misusing air guns. The answer is not the abolition of air gun ownership and use. The answer is for PARENTS to strighten out their youths. If crimes were commited, then those young people should have to deal with the results. Penealizing everyone for the actions of a few should never be tolerable to the people.

Just my openion. Thanks.
[b][/b]

Alstone · Moderator & Site Supporter

Hi paladin
This is a subject where you are never going to get a concise opinion on, I don't think every thing should be banned, if people want to go sky diving and kill themselves then thats OK with me, but why would anyone want to carry a machete or a dagger on city streets, the only reason is to do harm to someone else and this is a problem we have now.

The whole discussion started about goverments trying to ban airguns by the back door, we have a problem with BB guns, not the "Droid" type, but the cheap spring powered plastic ones, and the police want people to hand them in, (although they are not illegal) and they are including airguns in that request, and the discussion kinda got on to handguns (firearms), and air guns get lumped in with them as well. So you see UK air gunners are stuck between cheap bb guns and firearms and when anything goes wrong with either we get it in the neck.

Al

thepaladin · Senior Member

True, and I want to do my best to always keep discussion civil, thanks. I just have a gut reaction to the attitude the "buy backs" and so on show. We had a spate of "gun buy backs" here for a while. It led to a lot of gun thefts. One criminal in Calafornia confessed to making several thousand dollars buy stealing legal guns and turnung them in. Hot guns, guns that had been used in crimes all got turned in.

I'm just concerned with our (remaining) rights. Those of us who are law abiding citizens would be the only ones any gun law or government action would effect.

Thanks for the conversation, I'm glad to have found a spot where we can talk civilly about all facets of gun ownership and use.

23ib0d0n · Moderator

The biggest problem with 'gun ban laws', is that the situation disarms the law abiding, thus it only provides 'legally' unarmed victims for criminals to commit crimes against. When the populace is armed, crime numbers are much lower - with the obvious exception of 'thug on thug' assaults.