Air Gun Home :: View topic - Whats a reasonable grouping for a new rifle?

aircube · Veteran Member

Hey, new here, Smile

What is a reasonable grouping for a new rifle at 15 yrds/45 feet and 60 yards/ 180 feet?

I was dialing in the scope today and I think it was fairly resonable, but I have no reference because I have never really done targets before, just the odd squirel and crow.

Heres a couple of pics. The printed out target was from 15 yrds/45feet lying on my stomach. The pink centre is 1". not sure what happen to those two that dropped to the right ??

The orange colored dot, was from 60 yards/ 180 feet and is 2" wide and about 1.5" tall (failed "circles" in kindergarden i guess) worst shot was
3" off centre.

How did I do? How are the groups. Is the rifle performing well, or should they be tighter.

Rifle: C-Tire Benjamin 22 495 fps stock, but deburred and lubed.

15 yards / 45 feet

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60 yards / 180 feet

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AirGunEric · Site Admin

You're doing fine so far. Break the rifle in a bit more and the grouping should tighten up a bit (i.e. 800-1000 shots through it). On your first picture, it looks as though you had a couple bad pellets, or you moved- don't think the two strays were the fault of the rifle in any event. The second picture, the results are actually surprising for a sub-500fps rifle at 60 yards- I would not have expected it to be as accurate as it is.

aircube · Veteran Member

Thanks for the comments, Smile

I'm not real steady, and I have never shot with a scope. Even lying on the ground with both arms supported I was still swaying around quite a bit. If I was freestanding I think they would have been more like 6" spread all around centre.

I was thinking the 60 yard was pretty good considering the amount of drop. I was experimenting with both using the marks on the crosshairs and turning the elevation knob, many many clicks until I had the right height. The drop must have been about a foot!

ha, had a good time today.

I'm turning 37 this summer, I've spend the last 18 years trying to be an adult(what a drag), now I am going to spend the rest of my years becoming a kid again. Mr. Green

Buster Bodine · Veteran Member

I'm going to take a shot (oooh, lame pun) at this one but please remember not to take offense at what I say. I don't know you and have no way of knowing how much shooting experience you have so I have to assume you're "average." You may be better than that but judging from the groups you're certainly no worse.

Please let me preface what I'm about to say next by saying I spent many years putting the meat on the table as a professional firearms instructor. I've taught Marines, Cops, Soldiers, Sailors, and Civilians from several countries. And yes, I can often diagnose shooter error by looking at the target. Any good instructor can.

The first thing to remember if you have any experience with "burners" as they call FIREarms around here, is that non-PCP airguns are almost never going to give the same nice tiny groups that a burner will. The reason why is simple. You have to break position after every shot to work the rifle's action.

Obviously with a burner or PCP, you try to hold position through the entire string. Since consistency is the key to accuracy, the less changes or movement you make from shot to shot, the better your groups are going to be. This isn't possible with a springer or pump airgun.

This has nothing to do with the inherent accuracy of the airgun and everything to do with the inability of the human body to ever re-aquire the same exact position relative to gun and target once you've moved. The best of us can get pretty close, but nobody's perfect.

Next, I recommend if you're going to shoot for group size that you start shooting shorter strings. A 14 or 15 shot group is never going to "tell the tale" of accuracy with your given gun, whether air or other. Basically, less shots fired means less flyers to try and "throw out." Try shooting and measuring 3 shot groups and see what happens.

Having said that, the next time you go shooting, pay particular attention to your breathing. The "Pink Dot" target shows a lot of "vertical stringing." Vertical stringing is what you see when you have a succession of bullet strikes creating an almost cut looking line of shots running in a vertical line (string.) The amount of air in your chest affects your cheek weld and natural point of aim. More air in your lungs means a higher POA, less air means a lower POA.

Also remember this about shooting an air rifle as opposed to a burner.

Scoped firearms are almost always used at distances much greater than the distances at which air rifles are used. That "spectacular" 60 or 70 yard shot you make with an air rifle is only a "pretty good" shot if you make it with a .22LR and not really impressive at all with a good centerfire rifle. After all, an experienced rifleman with a properly set up .22 should be able to hit bowling pins at 100 yards and some of us can hit them reliably out to 200 yards.

All of this is to say, with a scope, sometimes errors which wouldn't affect anything at longer ranges are actually magnified (oh, another lame pun) at lesser distances. This seems contrary to what we normally expect when shooting. "Everybody knows" that a little error at 25 yards is a HUGE error at 250.

Except with a scope.

When you place a scope on top of a rifle, even if it's mounted fairly low, you get a big increase in the distance from Line of Sight (LOS) to Center of the Bore. (COB)

Basically, the sighting plane of your reticle is farther away from the bullet path than it would be with iron sights. What this means to you the shooter, is that an error in cant (leaning the rifle to left or right) which would have little or no effect with iron sights will actually throw your impact off pretty substantially on the target.

You didn't mention what kind of scope you're using but suffice it to say, the larger the objective bell, the higher off the bore the centerline of the scope is going to be and thus the more critical its going to be to eliminate as much canting as possible.

So to recap...

Shoot shorter strings before checking your groups.

Pay particular attention to finding your position again after breaking pos to charge your gun.

Watch your breathing.

Try to keep the rifle as level as possible.

Watch these things and you should start seeing an improvement in group size very quickly.

Sorry for the windy post, hope it helps.

yourdaddyjoe · Supporting Member

Slavia · Moderator

Eric and Buster are absolutely correct - heed what they said.

Buster's point about consistency is well taken. In addition to cheek weld and cant, try to duplicate your hand positioning as well. With a big piston and spring flying around inside, your gun has lots of vibration, and where you hold the gun will influence how that vibration affects the shot. Also, hold the gun lightly. How tightly you hold the gun will influence how that vibration affects shot placement, and loose is the easiest way to be consistent. Use just enough grip to control the gun, and let it rock in your arms.

Eric's point about the break-in period is correct. In addition to that mechanical break-in, you as a shooter will undergo an ergonomic "break-in," which is to say you'll figure out the best way to hold the gun, and soon it will be automatic. Things are pretty good now (especially that 60 yard group), and they will get better.

Many airguns are picky about pellet choice - try as many kinds as you can.

Welcome to the forum, and report back soon.

aircube · Veteran Member

Absolutley not offended, and the "windage" is much appreciated. I have been plinking around since I was about 10 but I only recently got back into air rifles when I saw all the extremely cool gear that is availible these days. I've never done targets really, so its quite new. All of your opinions are very much valued and I really appreciate the time taken to analyze and my shots and write the post as well.
Re: holding position. The scope is a Centerpoint 3-9-40 AOE r/g When I was lying down I was bending my neck and head up and in an akward position. I did't realize that head position had such a large effect, until you mentioned it and then I tried my new Leapers Tactedge 1X red/green dot which is "supossed" to have unlimited relief. and was really surprised how much the dot moves when I move my head from side to side. Really drove the nail home about the error is a std scope with diff positions.

I do have a couple of questions:

How do I mount the scope perfectly horizintal to the rifle? DO really good scopes have bubble levels in them?

When you say, watch your're breathing, how so?

shallow, slow, hold breath???

Thanks again for all the tips, Smile

AirCube

Buster Bodine · Veteran Member

Uhmmm...

Okay, let me try to eat this elephant one bite at a time. Laughing

Slavia · Moderator

BREATHING - If you try to fill your lungs and hold it, it takes effort. If you try to exhaust (empty) your lungs and hold it, it takes effort. Take a couple of deep breaths to oxygenate your blood and then hold it at that relaxed spot in between full and empty.

PARALLAX - The little dot moves when you move your head? Yes, it does. On rifle scopes with reticles and adjustable objective lenses (the front one) you can tune this out. Some red dot sights are pretty much corrected; others are not. You get what you pay for. If you use that "muscle memory" to consistently position your head, then your eye will also be consistently positioned. It's a little tougher with handguns. Try to position the dot in the center of the lens (or field of view). As an aid to doing that I scraped the paint off the ocular (rear) lens bezel, creating a shiny reference circle:

CANT - I have bubble levels on several of my guns. I use the level if it's a careful, single shot (from a rest) at 50 yards or more. Otherwise I ignore them and estimate using my senses.

Slavia · Moderator

Is this blue chicken range?

Buster Bodine · Veteran Member

aircube · Veteran Member

My new bipod, Leapers red/green dot and an order of various pellets came in the mail yesterday Mr. Green

I tried some shots indoors lst night with the bipod and holy-smokes what an invention! Can someone say cheating.....

The 1X Gen7 Leapers Tactedge red/green dot is sweet, the relief really is unlimitmed, which is great becuase you can find and center the dot faster as you hone in on your position and target.

I ran the 3-9 40 centerpoint and then the 1X Dot scope to compare groups. Indoors(at night) i'm limited to about 30 feet, At this distance I think the 1X Dot scope had the 1-up on the 3-9X

I also shot 3 groups of each of the following pellets (with bipod)

Predator 16gr
Crow Magnum 18.2gr
Crosman Premier Hollow 14.3gr
Gamo Raptor 9.9gr
Beeman silver bear hollow 12.65gr
Skenco Green Monster (cool) 11gr
Skenco Long range missle (verycool) 16.7gr

like I had said it was only 30 feet, next time i'll do 60 then 180.

I'll try to post the pics later today, if anyones interested.

Buster Bodine · Veteran Member

Well YEAH we're interested! Post pics or just give us group measurements, let us know how you're doing and what kind of performance you're getting out of your guns.

oilburner · New Member

THIS, is a great thread! Your helping more than one person out I'd like to say!

aircube · Veteran Member

Hey,

Just wanted to post my thoughts an d a couple of pics of two products that I just received the other day.

First up, a Leapers Gen7 Tactedge RED/GREEN Dot 1X scope with a dovetail mount. Very solid build and nice matt finnish, i like the look with the peaked shade on the front. Dots are very bright even in full sun, Its easy to dial it it (i'll post the sight-in target later) It took a few shots at 5 targets to sight in. Eye relief really does seem to be unlimited in this TACTEDGE model. You can move your head and eyes allover and the view is crystal clear. It seems as if they have the correction tuned-in fairly well, because it seems you can move your head 2" to one side or up/down and the red dot will move to compensate and you will still group. Cool for game bird hunting.

Next up is the UTG Dragon Claw clamp on bipod. Resonable price, light, nice construction and finish and it does WONDERS for a shakey stance! This thing clamps on, then you spin the wheel to tighten it up, all of which takes about 10 seconds. The legs spring out when you spin the knurled thumb knobs towrds the bottom. The Legs also retract by lifting a button/catch and folding them forrward/backward.

Here it is

I'm just getting back into this so I did't want to break the bank buying really high end gear. But, I am overly impressed with the quality, function and price of these lower end units. Smile