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 Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 4:31 pm |
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| AirGunEric |
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"Chamber" implies a spring gun in my mind- and you don't want petroleum distillates around a spring gun "chamber". If you mean in the barrel/loading port- I'm not sure it would do anything useful except for making splats of oil out the muzzle.
People tend to over-oil things- somehow thinking "more is better"- but too much and valves and such start to accumulate residue with the oil acting as a retainer (dirt/debris). |
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| Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 4:40 pm |
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| Alstone |
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I have always used silicon oil on the top of Co2 capsuls, and guns such as my Twinmaster have shot over 30,000 pellets and still on the original seals after 4 years of use.
Al |
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| Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 5:16 pm |
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| rsterne |
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| Quote: |
| Co2 cartridges, they seal around the neck and not the top surface |
Not in a 22XX they don't.... The seal is a flat washer in the end of the valve and seals on the end of the CO2 powerlet.... That's why Crosman say to use a small drop of oil on the end....
Bob |
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Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since!
Airsonal: Too many to count! |
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| Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 6:59 pm |
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| Slavia |
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| Quote: |
| "Chamber" implies a spring gun in my mind- and you don't want petroleum distillates around a spring gun "chamber". If you mean in the barrel/loading port- I'm not sure it would do anything useful except for making splats of oil out the muzzle. |
"Chamber" implies the same thing to me.
Interesting MSDS for Quaker State Full Synthetic oil. It says in two places that it is "non-flammable," and yet gives a flash point of 440 Deg. F., "may ignite when preheated," and "material will float and can be re-ignited on surface of water." I wouldn't use it in the compression chamber of a springer.
http://jackbyrne.info/Msds%20PDF/quaker%20state%20-%20full%20synthetic%20motor%20oil%20-%20all%20grades.pdf
| Quote: |
| Not in a 22XX they don't.... The seal is a flat washer in the end of the valve and seals on the end of the CO2 powerlet.... That's why Crosman say to use a small drop of oil on the end.... |
Besides the shape of the seal, I had always heard that a drop on the very end will work its way into the valve body and preserve the seals inside. |
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| Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 2:43 am |
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| Alstone |
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| rsterne wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Co2 cartridges, they seal around the neck and not the top surface |
Not in a 22XX they don't.... The seal is a flat washer in the end of the valve and seals on the end of the CO2 powerlet.... That's why Crosman say to use a small drop of oil on the end....
Bob |
Bob's right.
Crosman Co2 capsules have a folded end cap that leaves a small groove around the lip, this is ok for some guns such as a 2240, but if used on the type of gun that seals by using an O ring around the neck, the seal can be torn out by the capsule, this applies to some of the Umarex range and probably others.
With my assortment of Co2 gun I stay away from Crosman capsules as they ripped the seals out of my Winchester.
Al |
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| Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:02 am |
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| oddtodd |
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| That's good to know Al. I have mostly crosmans and one daisy that use CO2 but they all use the face seal and not a neck seal. I don't have any other brand of cartridge available to me though. Any suggestions? |
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| Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 4:46 pm |
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| DavidS |
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| Alstone wrote: |
| rsterne wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Co2 cartridges, they seal around the neck and not the top surface |
Not in a 22XX they don't.... The seal is a flat washer in the end of the valve and seals on the end of the CO2 powerlet.... That's why Crosman say to use a small drop of oil on the end....
Bob |
Bob's right.
Crosman Co2 capsules have a folded end cap that leaves a small groove around the lip, this is ok for some guns such as a 2240, but if used on the type of gun that seals by using an O ring around the neck, the seal can be torn out by the capsule, this applies to some of the Umarex range and probably others.
With my assortment of Co2 gun I stay away from Crosman capsules as they ripped the seals out of my Winchester.
Al |
Well that is interesting Al as in my 1077 Crosman Repeating Rifle after a little use the cartridges starting to leak when I'd insert them in the Co2 tube and tighten the large end nut with the long push rod on it and I couldn't get it to seal and I even added some magic transparent tape to the end of the Crosman cartridge thinking possibly the cartridges were not as long as they should be and they still leaked the pressure out in a very short space of time.
Then I tried using the long attachment for the much larger Co2 cylinders and after two went flat I gave up on that gun and crosman was really of no
help.
Then I picked up the rifle after some time and began looking it over and say the brass tightening ring around the seal that is on the sides and maybe at the end too. There was an elongated slot on the Co2 tube just above where the sealing nut/ring is which has two slot on each opposite side to tighten it with. I put a screwdriver through the slot in the tube and in to one of the slots. I gave a bit of a push and began rotating Clockwise and continued to do turn for about 1 complete turn, maybe more, it's been quite a while since I did this. Anyway I kept turning the tightening ring till it got fairly hard and stopped. This must have compressed the outside of the sealing ring and forced it inward to seal tighter around the neck and possibly bulge up the bottom of the sealing ring too?
I then inserted a Crosman Co2 cartridge and started to tighten the large knerled cap nut tightening it down completely and it hasn't leaked since and I used about three cartridges since.
The reason I feel the Co2 cartridge must seal around the neck first is that
it would seem that the cartridge end seal would be punctured long before the end of the cartridge would be pressing against any seal at the bottom. So if the cartrigde is punctured prior to reaching the bottom I find it hard to believe that just the foil end cap would seal tight enough around the puncture needle to prevent a fair excape of Co2 before the cartridge bottomed out.
Now on the other hand if the cartridge sealed around the neck first then it wouldn't matter after the neck was sealed at what point the cartridge was punctured which to me seems a lot more logical and indeed in my case has proved out.
Now a bit of oil on the end of the cartridge may well help to keep the seal lubricated and plyable which is a good thing I would think.
Interesting discussion anyway. |
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| Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 5:14 pm |
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| rsterne |
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The 22XX doesn't pierce the cartridge until you fire it.... The piercing pin is inside the valve and driven into the end of the cartridge by the first hammer strike....
Bob |
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Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since!
Airsonal: Too many to count! |
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| Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:41 pm |
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| DavidS |
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The little 1077 sure doesn't work that way, now I'm not sure about the Beretta but I think that also pierces the cartridge immediately?
But non-the-less once punctured the cartridges have to be sealing against something. And in the 1077 it happens hen the cartridge is inserted. Now here's something else to substantiate what I was saying about the 1077 sealing around the neck of the cartridge.
As said before the 1077 also came with an adapter that threaded into the same tube that held the smaller Co2 cartridges and also has a long tube that is tapered on the end like a small cartridge so when it threaded in it seals the same way. Before when the small cartridges leaked I also tried the adapter which has it's own on/off screw valve where the larger cartridge screws on to it externally.
So when I screwed a large cartridge into the adapter with the valve shut off there was no leak. The adapter was firmly seated into the tube which would mean it should be ok to open the external valve and pressureize the fireing mechanism but before tightening the ring around the sealing gasket it leaked when I opened the external valve.
Now I haven't tried it again as I have a considerable number of cartridges
but I'm sure it will seal just like the cartridges do.
Also the reason I mentioned about the adapter being screwed in firmly was to also point out that if it actually sealed on the end alone then it should have sealed but didn't.
It interesting to know that there are different methods of causing the Co2 cylinders to seal, I never realized there were different methods, Live & Learn.
That's what makes the forum interesting. |
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I'm a Firm Believer in Gun Control!
'You and Only You', should be the Only One in control of YOUR Guns! |
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 10:22 am |
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| Alstone |
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The easiest way to tell how a Co2 capsul seals is by looking at the seal, if there is just a face seal then it seals on the face, neck sealing guns use a face seal and an O-ring above it in a tube to seal.
Al |
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:32 am |
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| AirGunEric |
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| Alstone wrote: |
The easiest way to tell how a Co2 capsul seals is by looking at the seal, if there is just a face seal then it seals on the face, neck sealing guns use a face seal and an O-ring above it in a tube to seal.
Al |
Yup.
All the Crosman's using the common 38-128 seal are "face seal" designs. In fact- all Crosman's are "face seal" types so their caplets can be used in them. The fact that the seal face compresses in the case of the 38-128 and 'bulges' out around the neck of the caplet slightly is more coincidental than by design- the seal is not made on the neck- it is still made on the face- but alot of extra material makes up the seal to allow for wear/tear with use. |
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 12:43 pm |
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| DavidS |
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| AirGunEric wrote: |
| Alstone wrote: |
The easiest way to tell how a Co2 capsul seals is by looking at the seal, if there is just a face seal then it seals on the face, neck sealing guns use a face seal and an O-ring above it in a tube to seal.
Al |
Yup.
All the Crosman's using the common 38-128 seal are "face seal" designs. In fact- all Crosman's are "face seal" types so their caplets can be used in them. The fact that the seal face compresses in the case of the 38-128 and 'bulges' out around the neck of the caplet slightly is more coincidental than by design- the seal is not made on the neck- it is still made on the face- but alot of extra material makes up the seal to allow for wear/tear with use. |
Well guys, if the end seal is how it seals then how is it that when I inserted the long tube adapter for the large cartridge that should have sealed against the bottom or the face of the long tube it didn't? It was tightened in very good first too before I opened the valve to allow the large [20 grm?] cartridge to pressurize the firing mechanism.
Also if the cartridges sealed on just the face rather than around the neck why have the cartridges as well as the end of the long adapter tube necked down before reaching the face so as to form an added sealing step area around the neck? This also makes the end of the cartridge/s smaller in diameter offering less sealing area.
Also from the Web in looking up Crosman cartridges it states this:
"Copperhead® Powerlet 12-gram CO2 cartridges provide you with a snug fit and solid seal for a reliable, consistent performance with almost any gas-powered gun."
Again what's the need for the snug fit they are talking about if not for sealing?
Repeating what I said above the long tube on the adapter sure didn't seal on it's face. |
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I'm a Firm Believer in Gun Control!
'You and Only You', should be the Only One in control of YOUR Guns! |
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 1:26 pm |
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| rsterne |
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I think you need to read what I wrote.... I haven't a clue about how the cartridge seals in a 1077, never owned one.... HOWEVER, in the 22XX series, they seal on the face.... That is made possible because the piercing pin is below the seal at rest.... It won't pierce the cartridge until the gun is fired for the first time after a new cartridge is inserted....
I think it is unproductive to try and convince people that all CO2 cartridges seal on the sides, it just isn't true....
Bob |
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_________________
Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since!
Airsonal: Too many to count! |
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 3:23 pm |
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| Alstone |
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| DavidS wrote: |
Also from the Web in looking up Crosman cartridges it states this:
"Copperhead® Powerlet 12-gram CO2 cartridges provide you with a snug fit and solid seal for a reliable, consistent performance with almost any gas-powered gun."
Again what's the need for the snug fit they are talking about if not for sealing?
Repeating what I said above the long tube on the adapter sure didn't seal on it's face. |
The reason for the snug fit refers to the fit of a Crosman Co2 Capsul in to the brass seal mount, this is to stop the seal spreading sidewards and up the side of the capsul neck causing a leak. You can sometimes have trouble getting other makes of Capsul to seal because the neck is smaller than a Crosman capsul.
Al |
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| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:06 am |
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| Dartssnake |
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