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Crosman Vantage NP improvements 
PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 8:02 pm Reply with quote
Mentolio
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Crosman Vantage NP .177

I bought this Vantage NP .177 last May with the intention to eradicate a family of groundhogs that moved under my neighbor's shed, and were eyeing-up mine. I practiced with it all spring, killed two scopes just by shooting it, and got 4 groundhogs...and thought it was ok, until I bought another gun. I've hated the Vantage ever since! The factory trigger is miserable, the stock is uncomfortable, the gun broke every scope I put on it (3 bundled 4x32, and one Centerpoint 3-9 IR scope), and when I took it apart, it was so full of metal filings and junk it's a wonder to me it functioned at all.
So it sat in my gun locker for several months, while I tried to decide what to do with it. In January I rebuilt it with a new piston seal, plenty of moly paste, and a brass bushing to make the trigger more agreeable. Better, smoother, but still not great. I wanted to hunt with this gun, but after buying a Chrony, found the velocity a bit lacking. Also, I wanted to get a composite stock for it, in the hopes of losing some weight and making it more weather resistant. So, I started surfing Crosman's website and looking at any exploded parts views I could find. The stock I ultimately went with was a Nitro Venom Dusk stock, and boy is it nice!

[
Nitro Venom Dusk stock next to Vantage NP wooden stock. Note the difference in the shape of the grip!

The Nitro venom Dusk stock is composite and HEAVY, but super cool looking, and shoulders really well. It shortens the reach to the trigger, and just feels better in general, and doesn't make me feel like I have to "squeeze" the rifle to shoulder it. The artillery hold was never so easy with the wood stock! The weight is understandable, as the stock appears to be totally solid.


Here you can see the construction of both stock "beds." They are ALMOST exactly alike in the way the receiver fits inside.


And here's the Vantage in it's new stock, with the Optima 3-9 scope that came with my Hatsan, mounted with an RWS Lockdown droop compensator.
Now that rifle is downright sexy!

I have put a few rounds through it, but don't feel comfortable enough to put it through it's paces just yet, as I'm still missing the Venom Dusk Stock Lug Brace (the Vantage Stock Lug Brace doesn't fit properly). Once that comes, I'll start working on upping the velocity (a Gamo seal, which is a bit softer, may do the business). With a (hopeful) increase in velocity, I'll next spring for a CDT GTR trigger to smooth out that mess. If I can get this gun to shoot near where I think it should, I'll try making this gun a dual caliber by scoring a .22 barrel for the Venom. Hopefully more to come.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 9:53 pm Reply with quote
Mentolio
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I just wanted to mention that the Vantage/Venom killed the Optima scope in 60 shots over the crony...I never even zeroed it! Oh well...I have since mounted a Centerpoint 3-9x32 IR (fixed objective) scope, using a UTG 10 degree (barrel droop compensator) Weaver adaptor. With everything tightened down, it is actually kinda nice to shoot now (finally!).



The stock has really made a tremendous difference in the comfortable shouldering and shooting of this gun! The Venom stock shortens up the distance between the trigger and grip, and the raised cheek piece is just wonderful (though I still need to get a set of low scope mounts...medium is a bit too high). Now that it's shooting well, all it really needs is a better trigger. I did the DIY trigger fix, and it helped a lot, but I suspect there will be a CDT trigger in my near future. The most accurate pellet so far (at 27 yards) has actually been the H&N Terminator Hollow Point, which looks similar to the Crosman Destroyer in design, which this gun has always liked in the past. The H&Ns will land darned near on top of each other, when I do my part (which sadly isn't as often as I'd like).
Modifying this gun has been a good experience, but if I could do it over again I would've avoided some of the frustration by just buying a better gun to begin with. I really don't have a ton of money wrapped up in this gun, but it would be nice to buy something that didn't need immediate modification just to be a decent shooter (insert favorite mid-level springer here). Hopefully the new Crosman/Benjamin NP2s are significantly better!
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 8:12 pm Reply with quote
Mentolio
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It's been a few months now, and I have to say that the old "scope-killer" seems to have been tamed! I went ahead and bought a UTG SWAT Compact AO, IR, 4-12x40-something, and now what was the most hated gun in my collection is now my go-to 30 yard small pest smasher. If i do my part, I can practically put Crosman brown box Premier Domes right on top of each other. It must be the stock, more than anything, that fixed the scope killing. I think the action was just loose in the old wooden stock (no matter how tight I made the screws) and just allowed too much movement of the action upon recoil. The action fits very snugly in the new stock, and the screws haven't come loose once in the 300 or so shots I've taken. Still haven't ordered the CDT trigger yet, but am working towards it. I now LOVE this once hated gun, and have no regrets. Would a nicer gun have needed less work? Yes, but it also would've cost a lot more money (even after the cost of the stock, trigger, etc.). If I were to do it again, however, I probably would just buy the Nitro Venom Dusk to begin with, clean it up, and modify the trigger.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 4:01 am Reply with quote
Alstone
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Congratulations Mentolio on sorting your problem out, although a bit expensive on scopes, but it does look the part now.
I think most serious air gunners have the same problem, they buy a gun thinking it’s the bee knees and find it’s a load of junk, then every so often taking it out of the cabinet putting a few pellets through it, then putting it back, in the end you decide to rip it apart and either sort it or junk it.
And in the end you finish up with a decent gun.

Good Stuff Thumb Up!

Al

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Nice 
PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2014 8:00 am Reply with quote
N6CRV
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Hello Mentolio, nice job. I JUST got a Vantage NP and have a two questions. One does it get easier to cock after broken-in? Second is it saids 70% quieter, if it is 70% less they have to be kidding. I have only shot it about 10 times but it is louder then my .22 Ruger. Does it get better after being shot more?
Thanks!!!
Don
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 7:15 am Reply with quote
Mentolio
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Hi Don,
"Does it get easier to cock as it breaks in?" This is kind of a tough question. It did get easier after A LOT of shooting. However, mine had a damaged "foot" on the cocking lever (the part that actually engages the piston and pushes it rearward when cocking). This bent "foot" was actually scraping against the outside of the nitro piston, causing extra resistance and gouging it pretty badly. After a time it did indeed cock easier, but only because it had scraped away a good bit of aluminum from the piston body. Once I rebuilt/cleaned out the gun and fixed the "foot," it now cocks smooth as silk, though it is still a bit tougher to cock than my other spring-powered rifles.

As far as it's "quiet-ness": the first twenty or so shots "cracked" pretty loudly, probably due in part to the filthy barrel, and dieseling from too much lube inside the chamber. Once you get the barrel clean, and shoot-out the extra lube, it is a fairly quiet gun. From behind the muzzle I get a metallic "ping" when I pull the trigger (this nitro piston IS significantly quieter than the traditional steel coil spring "rattle-twang" when fired). From the front there is a "pffffffffffft" sound as the pellet leaves the barrel. I think of the noise this gun makes as loud enough to hear, but quiet enough that it isn't easily identifiable as a gun being fired, hence the "backyard friendly" rating it gets. My Hatsan Striker Edge in .22 has a louder muzzle report, even though it's firing at a lower velocity, and the steel coil spring is obnoxious by comparison. Hope that was helpful.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 7:38 am Reply with quote
N6CRV
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Mentolio wrote:
Hi Don,
"Does it get easier to cock as it breaks in?" This is kind of a tough question. It did get easier after A LOT of shooting. However, mine had a damaged "foot" on the cocking lever (the part that actually engages the piston and pushes it rearward when cocking). This bent "foot" was actually scraping against the outside of the nitro piston, causing extra resistance and gouging it pretty badly. After a time it did indeed cock easier, but only because it had scraped away a good bit of aluminum from the piston body. Once I rebuilt/cleaned out the gun and fixed the "foot," it now cocks smooth as silk, though it is still a bit tougher to cock than my other spring-powered rifles.

As far as it's "quiet-ness": the first twenty or so shots "cracked" pretty loudly, probably due in part to the filthy barrel, and dieseling from too much lube inside the chamber. Once you get the barrel clean, and shoot-out the extra lube, it is a fairly quiet gun. From behind the muzzle I get a metallic "ping" when I pull the trigger (this nitro piston IS significantly quieter than the traditional steel coil spring "rattle-twang" when fired). From the front there is a "pffffffffffft" sound as the pellet leaves the barrel. I think of the noise this gun makes as loud enough to hear, but quiet enough that it isn't easily identifiable as a gun being fired, hence the "backyard friendly" rating it gets. My Hatsan Striker Edge in .22 has a louder muzzle report, even though it's firing at a lower velocity, and the steel coil spring is obnoxious by comparison. Hope that was helpful.


Thank-You!! Yes it was very helpful. I get the best answers from this site. I think you are 100% correct on the oil being burnt off as it smells like burnt oil after I fire it. It would/will be great when it get to sounding like a Pfffffft sound. We can shoot here in town, just don't want my neighbors to really hear it. Lucky in that I'm on the City Council and made sure that BB and Pellet guns were still allowed to be shot. We had a couple that wanted to band them and even being able to sight in Bows for hunting season.
Thanks again.
Don
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 7:54 am Reply with quote
Mentolio
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Wow, sounds a bit like New Jersey (sadly, where I live)! Good work on keeping airguns and bows from ending up on the "No-No list."
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Update...sorta. 
PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 8:22 pm Reply with quote
Mentolio
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Sorry for the length and multiple edits ...
Just a bit of a teaser, really. I've been doing my squirrel hunting with the good ol' Vant-enom NP, as it is more accurate and easier to shoot than my Hatsan (purpose bought for squirrel this season...sigh). While I've shot three squirrel so far, I've got to say that while accurate, I'm a little disappointed in the .177 caliber. I'm shooting Crosman Premier Brown Box domes. Shots that would most certainly be "quick kills" with my .22 are leaving the little guys lingering a bit more than I'd like. Had one with a head shot fall about 6 feet out of a tree, then climb another 6 feet back up into a hollow, dead tree. I was able to finish off the poor little guy, but could not retrieve him. My .22 would've most likely anchored the little guy right where he fell with the same shot...which leads to the segue: Crosman finally got the barrel I've been waiting for back in stock, so I ordered it, and all the little sundries I think I'll need to make it fit. Funny to think of it, but all the barrel stuff cost less than a CDT trigger...which I still haven't ordered, and am not sure I will. Crosman says it'll be a couple weeks before the goods arrive, but when they do, there will be an update titled something like: My Crosman NP dual caliber.

Edit: just read this all the way through, and felt I had to clarify. First, I have shot 3 squirrel, I forgot the one properly placed head shot that dropped it like a ton of bricks. Didn't mean to sound like I'm blaming the smaller caliber for my lack of one shot instant kills. My shot placement was a little off in both cases that required follow-up shots. The (problem) head shot I mentioned hit in the cheek, just below the eye, and missed the brain by about 1/4 inch. The first kill was a body shot, just forward of the shoulder, and exited behind the other shoulder. Had I placed those shots better, I'm certain that they would both have been clean kills. That said, I am also certain that had those same shots been delivered with my .22, equaling more foot lbs. on target, both would have proven to be more effective shots (and the "problem" head shot would have been a non-issue. I have had similarly placed shots using my .22 Leverage last year drop 'em like stones). So in closing: I am more confident in the .22 caliber to give me a clean kill when my shot placement isn't perfect (which it often isn't, I am sad to say). So I will practice better shot placement, AND see how this particular gun lends itself to the bigger caliber. Who knows, this .177 to .22 project may be a total fail. If that's the case, I'll just zero my scope for H&N 7.25gr Terminator HPs which tested to deliver the highest foot pounds of all the pellets I've tested so far (just over 15 Ftlbs!), and are still pretty darned accurate (even out to 30+ yards).
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Progress report: 
PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 7:34 am Reply with quote
Mentolio
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So the day after I wrote my tirade on the .177 caliber, I bagged this really big (by NJ standards, anyway) female. She was shot at 20 yards with the aforementioned H&N Terminator HP @ 7.25gr. I hit her a little high in the neck, just behind the ear, and she dropped, flopped, and stopped right where I hit her. Ideal result, I'd say. Of note: this pellet Chronys as my fastest, most powerful pellet in the Vant-enom, but DID NOT EXIT. When I peeled her, the pellet was just under the skin, in the area of the opposite shoulder, and VERY deformed...just what I want from a hollow point.



Sadly, this squirrel was "unhealthy." When gutted, her internals were all enlarged, her liver was "spotty," and she just didn't smell right. There was a lot of meat on this squirrel but don't worry, she didn't go to waste...the buzzards left NOTHING behind, not even bones. And now, something new:



Benjamin Trail NP barrel (and other sundries), chambered for .22. A little shorter than the stock .177 barrel (by a little less than an inch), but otherwise looks very promising. Not sure what I'm going to do about shrouding the barrel, as air gun "moderation" of any kind is illegal in this state. I may just look into making some kind of cap to protect the threads at the end of the barrel. A few more parts, and I should be in business...wish me luck.
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Re: Progress report: 
PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 9:49 am Reply with quote
Bob La Londe
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Mentolio wrote:
Not sure what I'm going to do about shrouding the barrel, as air gun "moderation" of any kind is illegal in this state. I may just look into making some kind of cap to protect the threads at the end of the barrel. A few more parts, and I should be in business...wish me luck.


I wandered about that. So does that mean that stock as manufacturered Marauders and NP Trails are completely illegal in NJ?

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 11:25 am Reply with quote
Mentolio
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Let me start my edit with: by statute, an air gun is (by definition) considered a firearm in the state of New Jersey. A FIREARM!

Completely illegal? Good question, I believe the statute reads something like:

"2C:39-1g states that a "firearms silencer" is any instrument, attachment, gun, or appliance for the causing of any gun, revolver, pistol, or any other firearm to be silent or intended to lessen or muffle the noise of the firing of any gun, revolver, pistol or other firearm." from a letter dated 8-26-2013, written by Lieutenant Joseph M. Genova, New Jersey State Police, Firearms Investigation Unit.

In this letter he further advises any retailers who are in possession of any of the aforementioned "suppressed firearms" (Gamo whisper and the like specifically mentioned, with the words "any firearm with a substantially identical firearm silencer" following) that they should immediately return these units to the manufacturer, or legally transfer ownership to another FFL liscencee from another state (where air guns aren't considered actual firearms), or risk losing their FFL and facing possible criminal charges. So, when I hunt with my Marauder, I use another barrel shroud that has been cut down to disallow the installation of the suppression system...and boy is it loud for such a usually quiet gun. Does that make my Marauder totally legal? Probably not, but I doubt any reasonable officer is going to charge me criminally unless I'm already doing something illegal. That said, my MRod spends most of its time locked away in my gun cabinet (which ought to be a crime in and of itself!). I cannot wait to be able to depart this ridiculous state FOREVER!
For those who have purchased other moderated air guns and live in New Jersey, I would suggest sending them to stay with someone in another (more reasonable) state, or just don't get caught with them while doing anything even remotely questionable.
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IT LIVES! 
PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 7:45 pm Reply with quote
Mentolio
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Sorry for the length of this post.

The mailman brought me a package from Crosman today, contents below.



Here is my new Benjamin Trail .22 barrel with shroud, cocking arm, etc. right below it is my old Vantage .177 barrel. Sadly, I forgot to order the threaded barrel shroud end, and so couldn't affix the shroud to the barrel...oh well.



Here are both barrels next to each other. The .22 barrel is actually about 1.5 inches shorter than the .177 barrel from breech to crown, which was a bit worrisome at first. I know this power plant is a strong one, but I also know that barrel length usually has a direct effect on pellet velocity. I like to think I'm pretty realistic, and so determined that as long as this gun produces over 600 fps, I'll be ok (must produce over 600 fps to legally hunt here with an airgun). Boy was I pleasantly surprised!



Here you can see a subtle difference in the breach block shape, but it can assure you that it locks-up straight and solidly. The barrel does hang-up occasionally when closing, but the original barrel did that when it was new as well. The spring and the locking piston, that ends in a wedge, just need to wear-in.





And here are the obligatory "vanity photos" showing the finished product. The second photo shows the barrel shroud in place, which it won't be until I get the threaded end for the shroud. "Yeah, but how does it perform?" you're probably asking...read on for some Chrony data.

Chrony data collected with the barrel cleaned, and no "seasoning" (zero shots through it). Most of the pellets I tested are known good performers in my other guns, and a few were pellets that perform poorly in those same guns. I'll start with the traditionally poorly performing pellets.

H&N Hollow Point, 12.65gr: Average: 795.4, ES: 37.5, SD: 10.81. Usually shows well on the Chrony, but groups poorly on target. Also, these are the least consistent fitting pellet in the breech. Some are tight, some just fall in, really not what I expect from H&N.

JSB Exact Domed, 13.43gr: Average: 739, ES: 14.56, SD: 4.12. Another that usually shows well on the Chrony, but groups poorly. Bought these by mistake, and hope to someday have a gun that groups well enough with these to be worth shooting them...all 500 or so of them!

RWS Superdome, 14.5gr: numbers are irrelevant, as these always Chrony well, and always group really poorly! We'll see how they do when I accuracy test tomorrow (not even my Umarex will shoot these worth a darn).

...and now the good-uns...

H&N FTT Domed, 14.66gr: Average: 743, ES: 20.87, SD: 7.14. Typically shows well on the Chrony, and usually groups "ok", but never my first choice. These seem promising, and so I gave them two chances over the Chrony. Pretty consistent stuff.

JSB Exact Domed, 15.89gr: Average:703.4, ES: 13.13, SD: 4.69. My "goto" pellet for most everything. They don't always show the best numbers on the Chrony, nor make the highest power, but they DO always group well in my other guns. These and the 14.35gr JSBs are my favorites to date.

H&N Terminator Hollow Points, 16.36gr: Average: 704.1, ES: 18.41, SD: 5.19. These are the pellets I hunted with when this gun was a .177, and they are awesome! They (in .177) were the most powerful and accurate pellets at under 35 yards. I am hoping their big brothers act the same.

I also have a Benjamin Sampler pack, with Domes, Pointed, Hollow Point, and Destroyer pellets. I didn't get to Chrony them, as I ran out of daylight and had to stop. I'll try to include them as well, if they end up worthy of mention. Also in my next post will be a parts list for anyone else who wishes to "upgrade" their Vantage.

I plan to do some accuracy testing tomorrow, and will report back with the results.
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Meh... 
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2014 8:21 am Reply with quote
Mentolio
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Been awhile...zeroed my scope and accuracy tested the rifle. It seemed ok, so I took it on a hunt, and it performed alright (my shooting was not up to snuff). A few weeks passed while I waited for the $ to replenish my pellet supply (went on that hunt with the last of my H&N FTTs). Yesterday I tried a few new ones, and discovered that Coal Fenix pellets (look like Eunjin to me) don't group well in either of my springers. Unfortunately, none of my other pellets grouped anywhere near well from the .22 "Vantom." I was getting good groups with it before the hunt, but now couldn't put shots on paper, much less on target. I re-zeroed the scope, which was about two complete turns worth of elevation off (shooting very low), and about a turn and a half off in windage (shooting far left)?!? Once somewhat zeroed, I was still shooting best groups of about 8 inches ctc with known favorite pellets.
The Chrony showed no signs of power degradation (looking at the numbers this guy was putting out, I'd have expected serious accuracy and harmony), the barrel was still locking up, no pressure bleeding from the breech seal, and everything was tight/straight. Just for comparison, I replaced the .22 barrel with the old .177 barrel, re-zeroed, and shot fine (I was a little off yesterday, but was still shooting 1" groups at 25 yds with the .177). I examined the .22 barrel, and found something:


Barrel never felt gritty or bound-up when opening and closing...




These two show a breach seal that is more compressed toward the top than bottom. I would be more concerned about this, but tissue attached to the gun didn't budge when covering the breach block and fired. Also, with the breech opened, there is a complete "halo" around the air chamber port (lead, lube, whatever that residue is).


I cleaned the barrel, but didn't get much out of it. I looked at the crown, which while not visually perfect, is a far cry from the bad crowns I've seen online...sorry, pictures are not to helpful here. Of course, a bad crown wouldn't account for how well the gun seemed to shoot before, but suddenly couldn't hit paper now. I'll try re crowning and see if that helps. Admittedly, I have off days when shooting. But my "offest" day doesn't account for the lousy groups this rifle got yesterday. Also, I haven't had the time (or the ammo) to shoot it since my last hunt. Maybe I smacked it on something out in the woods and didn't notice? I don't think it would have shot well at all if it was a "bad barrel" from the get-go.





All that said, the Vantom will just have to be a tac-driving .177 until I work out the .22 bugs. I thought maybe the scope got banged around a little, or maybe was starting to walk (it's attached to a UTG 10 degree weaver adapter, which in turn is attached to the stock dovetail, and has a scope stop screw). I checked all my permanent marker lines...no movement. Screws were all tight, etc. Also, the scope held zero (in .177) just fine for around twenty shots, so I don't think it's the scope, though I will have to shoot it some more to verify. Maybe the Trail barrel just doesn't work with this gun, only time and experimentation will tell.
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Was accuracy a fluke? 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 8:12 pm Reply with quote
Mentolio
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I bought a new stock and air tube from Crosman, both Benji Trail All Weather bits. The stock: because it is hands down the best feeling/fitting stock I have felt to date. The air tube: because I wanted an integrated weaver rail to accommodate a lower riding scope. Also, the Vantage air tube air port was drilled off-center, and diagonally. Anyway, after careful rebuilding/recycling of parts (plus a new trigger group that now works splendidly), I ended up with a .22 Benji Trail All Weather. Of note: the Benji barrel that I was having trouble with was installed on this gun, and looked great, with the exception of the barrel showing really obvious and severe barrel droop. If you closed the breach of your favorite air rifle on a dime, you would know what I was looking at. In the pics above, I complained about the seal being more compressed near the top of the breach. Turns out, it wasn't compressed. Instead, the breach was finished at the wrong angle. Somehow, the breach seal "channel" was cut to the right depth, and at the right angle. The breach face was cut incorrectly. After a white knuckle session with a sanding disk, the barrel alignment problem was resolved.
All was not well, though. I Chrony'd the gun, with all it's brand spankin' new parts, but the velocities were significantly decreased with several pellets. Rather than assume the seal was somehow damaged and disassembling/rebuilding again, I opted to put the Vantage .177 barrel on it, and Chrony'd some more with known favorites. The results: higher, more consistent velocities than its previous .177 incarnation. This gun actually shoots CP Ultra Mag 10.5gr pellets like a boss! It never shot those well before.
Long story short: keeping the .177 barrel, as I can get 15+ft lbs with the .177 AND actually hit what I'm aiming at. The .22 barrel only puts out 2 or 3 extra ft lbs, which while nice has a steeper trajectory requiring more math. In the end, I'm not happy with the .22 performance of this particular power plant.
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Crosman Vantage NP improvements 
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