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Jaxom · Senior Member

Few weeks ago I had made an off hand comment about taking a deer with a .22 ag. General consenious here is that it's not a humane and would more then likely maim the animal rather then out right kill it.

So I've been doing some additional research. I've gone to several powerder burner forums and websites. The question I wanted to know was what is the smallest caliber that is capable in humanely taking a deer with.

Fortunilly for me, this question had been posed on just about every site I went to. And the result was, most hunters felt that a .243win is the smallest caliber that one should think of taking a deer with.

So I started looking at this caliber some more. For deer hunitng it's recommened to go with a bullet in the 80-100gr. The bullet will leave the barrel at 3300fps (one site said 3700fps, but that might be going with a lighter 40-80gr target/varmit bullets). But that makes me wonder, what is the fpe of the bullet when it reaches the target? And what fpe is required to take a deer humanely?

So my hypothetical question is this. Let's for a moment limit some of the varables. In this situation, the hunter is 100 yards from a medium sized legal dear that's standing broad side to the hunter. There's no wind and the cross hairs are right above the shoulder ready to make a double lung possibly top of the heart shot.

So at what the very least amount of speed or energy required to make this a clean, humane kill?

Jax

sniper · Silver Status Member

my opinion.

.223. 75 grains@ 2500 fps. or

.44 mag 250 grains @ 1200 fps or even

.357mag 180 grains @ 1000 fps (well placed shot)

assuming the deer is under 250-300lbs.

more deer have been taken with 30.30 (which is a mild round) than anything else.

30.30 170 grains @ 2100 fps or 150 grains @ 2300fps

i forget which old timer hunter said it but 500fpe will take a 500 lb animal.

i carry a .44mag winchester 16bbl when i camp with the bears. i feel safe. Razz

Slavia · Moderator

I think this issue has already been considered by the various states. For example, Minnesota says .220 caliber or greater, centerfire only:
http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/regulations/hunting/legalcartridges.html

Wisconsin says .22 caliber or greater, centerfire only:
http://dnr.wi.gov/org/land/wildlife/regs/index.htm

Iowa says .24 caliber or greater:
http://www.iowadnr.gov/wildlife/files/iahuntfish_regs.html

Each of those hunting regulations also cover pistols and muzzle loaders, but you get the idea.

Jaxom · Senior Member

Sniper, that's some good information. But with due respect, let's look at gamo pba ammo, sure you can fling it down range, besides not being very accurate, because it's such a light round, it won't transfer much energy to the target.

Slavia,

I think there's too much outside influence placed on state governments to make an objective statment of what it should take to make a humane kill.

Although I mentioned a particular caliber here, that could be why I'm not getting the information I'm seeking. Let me give another example.

You can take a needle and place it to an inflated balloon. It will require X amount of force to penetrate the balloons surface in order to make it pop. the amount of force is or in my mind should be the same weither it's a tiny "fine" needle point type or a huge canvas sewing needle. The balloons surface will require the same amount of force in order to penetrate it.

scroller99 · Veteran Member

I took a deer a nice 6 pointer at over 250 yards with my 243 and it was a nice solid shoulder shot. it turned the frony shoulders of the deer to goo, the back quarters, tenderloin and some of the neck but the rest was all bloodshot and bruised, so I figure that at a closer range the 22 mag would be a better choice, and the 30/30 is a brush cutter and will cut small twigs on its path without losing its coarse where the 243 will go anywere when hit with a amall twig on its flight, Howard

fritz · Silver Status Member

I would have no problem taking a close deer with a .22lr, that is where shot placement takes hold.

The weaker the bullet the better placement it takes. We can assume (as Jaxom said) that the deer is going to be shot above the shoulder.

I know for a fact people get humane kills on coyote, deer, bison, wild boar, feral goats, and many other game with big bore air rifles. These guns often produce less than 400fpe. The standard .45 acp puts out 352fpe (230gr ball going 830fps), the most is 518fpe with a 200gr JHP moving 1,080fps (seems like a hot load).

A dragon slayer only puts out 200fpe stock (IIRC). People kill deer with that, humanely.

So a 17hmr (~250fpe) should have no problem taking a deer right?

So... we can conclude that a compromise of about 150fpe with good shot placement will cleanly take a deer in a broadside shot. Remember that your .243 Win is a 2000fpe round.

dummyracer36 · Senior Member

i may be mistaken here, but it seems to me that one large factor is being totally ignored here. wound channel size. while i'm certain that IF you could fire a sewing needle @ great enough speed, you in theory could pierce lungs and heart on a deer, what are the actual chances of inflicting a fatal wound? the wound channel would just be too small.
here in Missouri, deer hunting is legal with airguns, provided the AG is a minimum of .45 cal.

the airgun smith Dennis Quackenbush, who resides in southern MO is almost solely responsible for getting AGs legalized for taking deer in this state. in many collaborations between him and the MO Dept Conservation and Fish and Wildlife Commission, the .45 was chosen as the bare minimum. if i understand the articles that i've read about this, they chose this caliber based on the wound channel size.

Slavia · Moderator

Jaxom · Senior Member

Ah, now we're getting at the "meat" of what I need or want to know.

I agree with alot that has been said. I just wasn't so sure on the numbers since I don't have a book on caliber specs handy. The only reason I knew a .243win had a fps rating of 3300 was it was mentioned on one site I was looking at for a poll on the smallest caliber.

I fully understand that wound channel and shock transfer both will have a signifcant affect on wiether or not a particular caliber can do the job properly and humanely.

The reason I gave the balloon example. If you used the same powder charge for a 50gr and a 100 gr bullet. Sure the 50gr will reach the target and penetrate the target, but due to it's weight it's highly unlikely that it would cause a killing wound. But the heavier bullet may just reach the target and bounce off due to the fact it has spent all of it's energy just getting to the target.

The point being in order to reach a target, penetrate it, expand large enough causing a large wound channel as well express a large enough shock wave in order to kill the animal any caliber will need so much engergy to achieve this.

I do realize that caliber size is one of the factors here, I was only trying to simplify things so someone doesn't say..."just use X caliber, and stop worrying about all the math." I wanted to understand the math behind it all and what makes a good minium caliber and what speed it needs to travel at and at what energy rating it will require on target to do what I want it to do.

Think about this for a second, Fritz mentions that the .243win is a 2000fpe round. But that's a powder burning spec. What if 80-100gr. bullet (pellet) was being pushed by a hpa/pcp ag rifle?

fritz · Silver Status Member

Jaxom, the 80-100gr ag bullet will be putting out about 800fps tops, or about 150fpe max.

Jaxom · Senior Member

What psi hpa are you assuming though???

Slavia · Moderator

fritz · Silver Status Member

Penn has a season for hunters using atlatls?

Shocked

WOW

sniper · Silver Status Member

atlatls

what is this?????

sniper · Silver Status Member

we seem to be looking for the whole balance of fps/fpe/ bullet diameter/weight.

GOOD TOPIC!!!

love the math in it! Wink

a .44 mag has more power than the .457 quackenbush. yet the quack @ 450grains@750 fps goes through animals Shocked

.

hey fritz what is i buy one for my rat problem? Razz